Saturday, September 6, 2008

Living out Loud

My Response To Pete

I thought because of the length of this, I would reply with a separate post regarding Pete’s question/s comments when I put this blog entry up.
Pete's thoughts etc. are in white, mine are in green.

I had listened to Darin on the God Journey podcast and I have friends who are very much part of Darin's Free Believer's Network, who encouraged me to look at the site and listen to some of the podcasts. The first thing I noticed on the home page was the introductory SERMON and the request for donations of $20 or more. That was two red flags!

Pete, All I know is that our heavenly Father has always made himself available to those seeking Him for Himself. I love how in Luke it says of Jesus, he sent the full away empty, but the empty, he sent away full! Not sure how that ties in here, but it is the truth just the same then as it is now.

I guess what I am pondering is, is my life, the life of the Father in us, as us, is it creating a hunger to want Him, to know Him without any unnecessary props? Are we more concerned in making others disciples of my/our opinions than of Him?
It seems that there is this mentality that has a firm grip on the hull of our thinking much like the barnacles on a ship, that if there is indeed a genuine hunger that has been birthed in the life of an individual then I must be that special someone they must have in their life in order to accurately hear Papa for their continued walk in grace. Is this the Truth?

BUT I did look at several articles and listened to a couple of podcasts. Some of the material is excellent but ...

I expressed my concern to another friend who pointed out that Darin was still giving sermons and that it seemed to him as if Darin was on a journey but hadn't yet had the courage to really step out of the box.

As I mentioned on my blog , Father has wonderfully enriched me personally through things he has written, on his pod casts etc, but I no longer see anyone especially those who are looked upon or on as being someone special. I kissed way to much ass in my former days playing the game within churchianity.

I am in the process of reading Wayne Jacobsen’s book, The Naked Church, and although in the very start of it I am seeing things he shared back more than 10 years ago being MOST relevant to some of what I have expressed in my thoughts re: this blog entry as well as in my reponse back to you.
By the way, before I forget, there was something you posted on a blog somewhere not sure where a line/phrase you said you had heard once that goes something like this; “I don’t really know what I think, until I have spoken it out loud.” I probably have misquoted you, but I loved that.
So in saying that even now in my pondering and sending this on to you, I too am learning, discovering much about what I really think, by voicing my thoughts out loud.

I love this part from Wayne’s book, and I intend to use this in a letter I'm forwarding to a good friend that has recently contacted me.

“Anyone who does not gush with admiration for church institutions and activities today is accused of being arrogant, rebellious, or judgemental. That’s our modern equivalent of being stupid or unfit. So, even though our Christian experience feels empty, we think we’re the only ones to feel that way. To admit this is unthinkable, so we rationalize those nagging thoughts that tell us this can’t really be what God had in mind. After all, there is always more to be gained by exploiting a system than there is by exposing it.”

We could both see that Darin had a lot to offer primarily younger people, who were beginning their journey outside of traditional Churchianity.

Pete, in my opinion, NONE of US has ANYTHING to offer anyone apart from Christ in us as us, period!! We are all placed in our journey of discovering at different times we are both students and teachers.
We are all being discipled by Christ Himself through His spirit working in and through each of us.

But this raised another question. How would we answer someone who suggested that had an elitist attitude?

Great question Pete; I love the story in Acts where it talks about a brother, an ‘Apostle’’ named Apollos who was an ’eloquent’ man, and he was mighty in the ‘Scriptures’. (Acts 18:24-28) This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord. He was according to the Scriptures speaking fervently in spirit, teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John, none the less spoke out boldly in the synagogue.
But, it says, and this is the heart beat of my response to your question; Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more ACCURATELY!

In my opinion when one sees them self being as a ‘someone-body’ as in, who do you think you are trying to tell me, don’t you know who I AM!
I am NOT saying this is how Darin sees himself, all I know is the church was fortunate back then that Apollos didn’t get all puffed up on who he was, but in fact a very real spirit of humility seemed to set the stage in his life in receiving a greater revelation of who this Christ was/is through what has often been referred to as ‘lay people.’
These two ‘lay people’ were fellow workers, colleagues with Paul himself.

I believe we miss so much in being puffed up vs. Being established and built up out His love 4 us ALL. It says in the Scriptures that the whole body is to be built up as a result of speaking the truth in love to each and every member. Our reliance is on one man, the man Christ Jesus as our only mediator between the Father and us!

I NO longer see any heroes, great men of God, but slowly as the eyes of my heart are being opened, I am SEEING the greatness of Him, our Papa in all that have been received of the Father.

We all NEED to see, especially those who might feel a bit superior to those ordinary garden variety type believers that He continues to oppose the proud, but graces the humble.
We are in great need of His grace and truth to NO LONGER recognize-know anyone after the flesh! Until this becomes the norm within the church, the cast systems will reign even outside ‘the box.’

And for the record, if I was able to sit down with Darin I would lovingly and calmly speak my heart to him expressing his need for me as much as my need for him, no more or less!!!


The simple answer is that I can't. I know the journey I have been on - outside the box to some extent for about 40 years - and how my thoughts and beliefs have changed gradually in that time.

Any thoughts?


Old Pete said...

Pete, in my opinion, NONE of US has ANYTHING to offer anyone apart from Christ in us as us, period!! We are all placed in our journey of discovering at different times we are both students and teachers.
We are all being discipled by Christ Himself through His spirit working in and through each of us.

I've picked this thought out particularly. I think I know what you mean and I think I would agree. But using that reasoning, I thought I had been a Christian for about 45 years before I ever heard the suggestion (summed up for me in Gal 2.20) that it is all about letting Jesus live his life in and through us. Are you suggesting that I had nothing to offer my family until then? I don't think that's what you mean - but that's one of my annoying traits - I have such an analytical mind that I pick on things like that.

When I look back I wonder why I never rejected a belief in God - I had enough reasons! But there was always something there! The last 14 years have been difficult - especially as my wife is not on the same journey. But as I said on my blog I realised recently that it's time for a fresh start. I find it amazing that that was triggered by the self diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome - one of the characteristics of which is an obsession with detail.

I have lost track of the number of times I have altered my web site - or how many hundreds of hours I might have spent on it over a period of eight years, but with hindsight I realise that this was the way in which Father was able to teach me some of what it was That He wanted me to understand. It was only this morning that I have been through the site again and finally said, "It's time to leave it alone" (apart from any minor changes or the addition of links to other sites).

I've replied to what you have written without really knowing much of your background (over the next couple of days I plan to look through some of your blog) but I sense we are very close in our thinking, after very different journeys.

The quote by the way was, "We don't really know what we think, until we hear what we say". It's when we are put on a spot with a question that we either hesitate or give an answer. Sometimes the answer surprises us - provided we recognise what we have said (or written).


Rich said...

Hi Pete,

Good to hear back from you.
I will respond to what you shared here a bit later, I am getting ready for work after my hiatus of being off from work for 5 weeks with a torn ligament in my right knee, as well as 3 weeks of holidays following the previous 5 weeks of being off.

Blessinsg to you

Rich said...


I replied to you over here.

David Boss said...

Wow. I happened to stumble upon this and I must say that I am amazed at how you see Darin Hufford. Honestly it seems a bit judgmental if you ask me. Did you know that Wayne Jacobson still goes to churches and preaches "SERMONS?" To judge someone for that and assume that they haven't stepped "out of the box" for that reason is shocking to me. Even Jesus preached "SERMONS" and He also accepted money from people (if you recall that Judas held the money bag).

I happen to know Darin Hufford personally and I can't believe what I'm seeing here. I can't believe the assumptions that Darin thinks he's better than everyone else and he doesn't need others. NOTHING could be further from the truth! He is exactly the opposite of this.

What is sad to me is that because you saw an opportunity for people to donate to his ministry (by the way, Wayne Jacobson gives that same opportunity) and just because you found "SERMONS" on his website you immediately assume the worst about him. If you ask me, someone here is still in the box of institutionalism and it's not Darin Hufford.

Sorry for being so harsh, but I honestly can't believe what I'm seeing here. This is just so very judgmental and so WAY off the mark when it comes to the person and heart of Mr. Hufford. And by the way, you CAN email Darin Hufford at any time and give him your phone number and He will call you personally to talk with you. How's that for being an elitist?

Old Pete said...


The internet is not an ideal means of communication but I just cannot understand how you have come to those conclusions from what I wrote.

Who is suggesting that Darin thinks he is better than everyone else? I am not aware that I have criticised Darin (let alone judged him).

I have listened to enough monologues (sermons) over the last 45 years, and as someone who has not had a full time job since 1990 I do not appreciate being asked for a donation before I can benefit from all of the material on the web site.

If you think I am still in the box of institutionalism I suggest you look at my web site.

What makes you think I object to sermons or teaching in church. Buildings have their place - we are all on different journeys - some are still members of traditional churches; some are involved with the emerging / emergent movement; some are members of house churches and some have no affiliation at all.

I've just been reading through what I wrote:
"But this raised another question. How would we answer someone who suggested that had an elitist attitude?"
Is this what has caused the misunderstanding? Unfortunately I missed out a word - "that WE had an elitist attitude?"

Incidentally I did email Darin some time ago and never got a response.