Thursday, October 23, 2008

More on “Man-up”

For those who haven’t read the original post, I encourage you to read it here.

The following are comments between my wife and our daughter. Our daughter is at University right now and one of the English courses she is taking has brought her to reading Paradise Lost by Milton, she our daughter is a true artist in numerous ways, one being a poet.
I love how Papa is making the sureness of His unalterable love known to so many, especially my precious wife and daughter, and of course, not forgetting my first born, Matthew!

Please feel free to dive in and hear Father’s heart of love calling you to BE HIS treasured one!


I was thinking about your Paradise Lost classes: you said they were boring, so... just to shake things up, when you get to the part where Eve gets blamed for everything, just innocently ask, "Where was Adam when the serpent tempted Eve? Wasn't his job to protect her?"

Because...I have this theory and it's that not only was Adam fully aware of what was going on with Eve and Lucifer, but that he LET HER TO TAKE THE FALL!!! Yes! I think HE was the one who secretly harboured a feverish desire in his heart to eat of the forbidden fruit, made all the more attractive because God said he couldn't have it! Adam was right there and could have stepped in at any time to throw Satan out on his pointy ear...but he did not. The result? 2000 years later, women are still getting blamed, and men are still ruling.

The whole man-up theory came to me after having spent the morning talking with our house guest, Ron. I started to think about how women most often have to shoulder the responsibilities for wimpy, indecisive, non-committal men (think single moms raising kids while working 2 or 3 jobs, getting no child support, etc.). Women who man-up more often and more effectively than men!

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

I am enjoying the Milton class more now that we're delving into paradise lost. In the text, Adam and Eve were working together in the garden, and Eve wanted to assert her independence and capability and suggested they work separately to get more work done. Adam consents nervously, as he recently had had a conversation with an angel about the danger they are in, especially eve, in terms of temptation. So they were separate at the time, but you're right, Adam, knowing that Eve was in danger of getting seduced, consented. This may suggest his own desire for the tree of knowledge vis a vis Eve. And then when she eats of it, Adam just couldn't live without her and so he eats too. That excuse seems pretty see-through, you're right.
I may very well write about this as there's a while lot to say about how this story represents the intense subjugation of generations of women after.
I was also thinking about writing about book two of P.L, when the council of the fallen angels meet. It's very ironic how they are so polite, cunning, and extremely reasonable with each other - it completely mirrors the political 'values' of today - how one can rationalize any evil and make it look reasonable!

I also know very well about wimpy indecisive non-committal men. Frank and Steven were both, fortunately, committed. However, they were both wimpy and indecisive! I've always craved that stability in a partner, one who I feel completely safe around, one who is a solid support. I want someone who I can trust to make decisions so that I am not the one doing it all the time. Neither has ever been able to put me in my place, which I do crave, because I get all the power that I do not especially want.

Steven is a solid support emotionally and in terms of commitment, but boy oh boy is he wimpy and indecisive! I feel more like the man most of the time (sometimes a tyrant), cooking and making decisions, helping him out a LOT in that way. He's very non-confrontational and has never had to work while he's in school. He cowers pathetically under his father's support. Plus he's a thirty year old man and this is the longest relationship he's ever been in. I took BIG issue to his past of non-commitment and strings of girlfriends. He can't possibly comprehend why that would bother me, and then turns the guilt onto me for 'bullying' him about his past!

Do I not have a reason to have a hard time trusting someone who has dated innumerable girls and broken many a heart? Stephen is a sweet guy to the core, but he is a fearful guy when it comes to that. So it is an honour and a curse that he is so devoted to me because I have somehow broken this chain, but I am also schooling him constantly about what a relationship is after the honeymoon: work!

I loved reading your letter! I love how you think! You made ME think!

You wrote: So they were separate at the time, but you're right, Adam, knowing that Eve was in danger of getting seduced, consented.

Now, Milton is taking some license here, of course - he had to think up something to explain Eve's downfall. So he intimated she had set the stage herself by not being submissive to Adam - making her out to be the guiltier of the two.

Here's the actual biblical account:

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.


The CAD!!!

(Guess Milton missed that little clause about Adam standing right there)

And for ages we've been led to believe, as Milton suggests, that 'Adam just couldn't live without her'. Yeah, right. My guess is that he couldn't wait to take a bite! He was standing right there, listening to every word and didn't do a blessed thing. I'll bet he was counting on Eve taking the rap! After all, he described her to God as "the woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree" As if he was absolutely powerless, the poor thing! AND - it sounds to me as if he's also trying to shift the blame on God when he says 'the woman whom YOU gave to be with me". If God had not given him that woman, well, none of this would have happened!

Let's not forget that Adam had been given authority and dominion over everything on earth, including the fowls of the air and the fish in the sea! But there was one thing he did NOT have - and that was the knowledge of good and evil. Hmmmm...

Bottom line? They were both equally responsible, but over the centuries man has distorted what actually happened in the garden to his own advantage to justify his subjugation of women.

Just my thoughts, but fun to think about!

I liked the picture your dad used on his blog to go with the "Man-up" article. If you look closely on the "Manly Man Sale", somebody has written "Doesn't Exist"!



Wow... very good here. Thanks for sharing this conversation with mom and daughter. Margi hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Not that it's my fault, mind you. I wasn't even there. I don't even know that woman!


Free Spirit said...

Thank you, Rich, for letting them share! Very good stuff!!

Amy said...

Thank you for posting this dialog between your wife and daughter! So many treasures within both them! It was a delight to read, and now ponder upon. Interesting about Adam and Eve....and Steve and Frank (I soooo agree with you about the passivity issue of them).

Per Adam and Eve: "They were both equally responsible."

Amen. Yes, they were. It is wise to understand, that they BOTH were.

~Amy :)

Rich said...


Loved the humor as always, but of course we were all THERE in Adam, wink :)

It is a wonder seeing how Father is drawing us ever deeper into the truth of His love, being loved, I see this wonder in my precious wife, and daughter as well in Matt.

Rich said...

free spirit,

I have and continue to be very much aware of the fact that looong before there is any outward evidence according to our natural senses, Papa has been accomplishing His will/purpose in the lives of people, working and forming in the secrect places.

What my wife and daughter shared here deeply touched me, knowing what they are barely seeing is Him drawing them ever deeper into His heart.

Rich said...


My pleasure. I so enjoy hearing how Father is communicating His heart, wisdom and thoughts through my family, He is so GOOD! Waht a treasure.

The first two questions asked in the scriptures were of course God initiated..Adam, whhere are you (in relation to Me), and, Cain, where are you in relation to your brother. I see this being an early picturee of the cross.

His loving grace has made it not only possible to come into right standing with God our father but also into a right standing, relationship with our fellow man.